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              <text>Kaylee: &#13;
We touched on this idea already, that Noli Me Tángere and its sequel, El Filibusterismo, are an irreplaceable part of Philippine history and literature. And like you said, Jose Rizal is our national hero because the novels he wrote had such a profound impact on the Filipino people who were being abused under Spanish colonial rule. And his works almost directly helped incite the revolution, the rebellion. I guess — do you think your experience learning it in school did justice in reflecting its importance and significance, and the magnitude of the story? If so, in what ways do you think?&#13;
&#13;
Catherine: &#13;
[0:56] Because we learned the whole thing, and we did it in such a thorough manner, you could really imagine what it was like, in those days. And you would find yourself getting incensed on behalf of the characters in the book. You literally could put yourself in the story and imagine all these things happening. So yeah, I think it really — the way I learned it really does justice to the work. And I actually think it stands up quite well. You could say that there are circumstances, even now, where a book like this might also still cause people to think of going against the establishment. If you can imagine the history then — but even now, in this current situation in history, there have been times when this can still cause people to think about going against oppression, going against an unjust government. So yeah, I think the legacy of José Rizal still stands.</text>
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                <text>In this audio clip, the interviewer asks the interviewee to reflect on whether or not she thought that her experience learning the novel in school did justice in demonstrating the significance and magnitude of such a story. The interviewee replies that, because they learned the novel in a thorough manner in school, it did justice to the work; it painted a complete picture of the oppression that Filipinos were suffering under at the time and helped students see how important Noli was in inspiring Filipinos to fight against such oppression. </text>
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              <text>Catherine:&#13;
If they teach it right, it's pretty hard to take it for granted. Well, if they're going to teach it like that, in a rush in half a year — &#13;
&#13;
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[0:11] It’s easy to forget. &#13;
&#13;
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[0:14] If you don't — if you don’t feel the full weight of the story, it's easy to just say, ‘Oh, well, that's just a story.’ If you really inhabit that world, and you see how your countrymen were oppressed at that time — it's very hard to forget that story. So they should continue teaching it in full and in detail.</text>
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                <text>In this audio clip, the interviewee reflects on the total importance of teaching Noli Me Tángere correctly and comprehensively in schools. She expounds that, if it is taught in a way that makes students feel the weight of the story, it will become a story that students carry with them for the rest of their lives. </text>
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              <text>Kaylee:&#13;
I guess, how do you think the digital age has affected people's access to the book now. Not just Filipino students, but…&#13;
&#13;
Catherine:&#13;
[0:12]&#13;
Yes. Internationally?&#13;
&#13;
Kaylee:&#13;
[0:16] Yeah, because — like you were saying, it’s on Project Gutenberg now.&#13;
&#13;
Catherine:&#13;
[0:18] Yes and, as I said, Penguin Classics, I think, has its own version — of course, it’s an English translation. Um, how it affected?&#13;
&#13;
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[0:30] I guess just, how it affects its widespread ability? And you know —&#13;
&#13;
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[0:37] Ah, social media, right? You were saying, like, also digital versions?&#13;
&#13;
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[0:42] Yeah and how, I guess — how many more people this story could impact?&#13;
&#13;
Catherine:  &#13;
[0:50] I think it’s — it could become like a world classic. I mean, you have English translations of Russian authors, German authors. So, it's good that the Filipino authors are also — or, you know, at least José Rizal is included among the classics, right? I mean, Penguin Classics — they take classics from all over the world and they put them in that collection. So it’s good that they included that. Because it really is a seminal work. It changed the history of the country. It deserves to have a place in the international…&#13;
&#13;
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[1:50] Literary canon?&#13;
&#13;
Catherine:&#13;
[1:51] Yes, actually, I think. I don't know how many people have read it outside of the Philippines, but now that it's available internationally, I hope more people will read it. Because it's really a good story. It's not a very veiled story. I mean, it's quite obvious. But it is very well written, and I think it served its purpose.</text>
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Can you describe what your experience was like reading Noli Me Tángere in high school? You can talk about things like what school year you read it, or perhaps what strategies your teacher took in teaching the novel in class, for example. Or you can, you know, deviate from that as well.&#13;
&#13;
Kenneth:&#13;
[0:18] I first learned about Noli Me Tángere in high school, and that was in the third year of my high school — the second to the last year before we graduated. On that third year of high school, we had to study — rather, read Noli Me Tángere as part of a Filipino class. Language class. So, learning Filipino, but through reading a novel — not a textbook, but a novel — where we enjoyed every Saturday afternoon, a discussion with the teacher. So first, the teacher would ask us to read a chapter — everybody reads a chapter, every week. And then on that Saturday afternoon, the teacher and the students discuss the narrative. What happened to the protagonists, to the actors who were the players of this Filipino drama. But as you can see: it's like watching a telenovela that you anticipate, coming to class every week. And we had to speak in the local language Filipino, or the vernacular. It wasn't easy, but it was fun.&#13;
&#13;
Kaylee:  &#13;
[1:34] So the book — the novel version that you had to read was very thorough?&#13;
&#13;
Kenneth:  &#13;
[1:39] The novel that we had to read in the vernacular was, in fact, very thorough — a translation of the original text which was in Español. Of course, in that particular discussion, we remember in high school, it took about an hour per class. But we had the very exciting discussion because there was a bit of comedy, a bit of drama, tragedy, adventure, heroism. It's the way the prose was written it makes it — even though it was translated to Filipino — it makes it fun to read. I must admit that when reading that in Filipino, or the vernacular, it was not easy because we learned how to speak English, though we live in the Philippines. Reading heavy words in the local language for us at the high school level — and we were age sixteen years old at that time. I found it challenging. But the teachers made it funny. Made it entertaining and light. So, for me, I truly enjoyed it.</text>
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Okay, was there a particular scene or character from the book that struck you specifically when you were reading it? Or if you don't recall a specific part, do you remember what impression you had of the overall novel at that time you were studying it?&#13;
&#13;
Kenneth:  &#13;
[0:17] Of course, the protagonist, the character by the name of Crisóstomo Ibarra. As he — first he wasn’t there, and he came in somewhere in the later part of the chapters. It was like you anticipate the hero trying to solve the ills of the Filipino society at the time. In fact, Noli Me Tángere, the book, was translated into English as titled as The Social Cancer. So for those students who were interested in society, governance, corruption — we found it very entertaining. Because it was a book that was creating — without the intention of the author, I think, José Rizal, the national hero — he was, in fact, creating dissent, inciting people to take things into their own hands against a Catholic-dominated governance: the Spanish government. Because Philippines then was a colony. But what was also difficult at the time was — of course, we were in a Catholic high school, studying a book that was anti-government and anti-religious establishment. The irony did not escape me: a school that teaches us to obey, to be disciplined, to be compliant to rules and regulations was in fact offering us a chance to read something that was causing incense. But then of course, it wasn't the school who required us to read it. It was the Department of Education, a government agency, that mandated a curriculum that had to be followed across all schools in the country.</text>
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Do you think that the school environment — such as having to learn it with classmates, having to write essays, being quizzed on the novel — impacted how you personally learned the book?&#13;
&#13;
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[0:11] Yes, it helped. Because it made us, as students, at that young age, pay attention to details. We had to read it, as I said, in the vernacular. And it wasn't easy for me — English being easier to digest and read — but learning in Tagalog and then trying to find the nuance of what the message was behind every sentence there made it, in fact, very challenging for me. But the examinations, the discussions in class, helped us anchor a focus on what was happening. Going back in high school — as I recall — we were not writing too much essays. It was really more of fill-in-the-blanks, multiple choice type of right or wrong answers.&#13;
&#13;
Kaylee:&#13;
[1:10] Okay, so more about detail. More about the memorization of details.&#13;
&#13;
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[1:14] Exactly. Rather than what were the nuances and the context of the time and what was happening, in the context of the Spanish colonization, the religious dominance, the corruption that was happening, and how the society was subservient to the Spanish colonizers. The second insight of the novel was about: people with power become corrupt. The religious authorities, as well as the people who were governing the Philippine islands at the time, exhibited some form of authoritarianism and corruption.</text>
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Since, you know, I was just talking to Mom about this: we both learned it as a textbook. Our textbooks were chopped up into chapters, and then we'd have guiding questions and, I guess,  exercises and stuff. Since you guys learned it as a novel — I mean, you also had quizzes and everything — but did it feel less like a textbook and more like a literary work?&#13;
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[0:36] Yes, we read it as a novel, and it looked more like a literary work that we were analyzing. For me, that was more fun. It was more real world. It was as if the school were preparing us not to look at it as a compulsory subject, like a course, but more enjoying the book — and then deriving what we can get from that book. And exactly — exactly like enjoying a telenovela. </text>
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If you look at other countries, if they have such a profound literary work that shaped a lot of their history, they would have maybe like a dozen movie or TV adaptations at this point. Why do you think there's never been a particular one that stands out here? &#13;
&#13;
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[0:17] I suspect the younger generation did not experience reading it like Victor Hugo’s Les Misérables. They read it like this was a required academic course set as a curriculum. And maybe they missed the point. And maybe it was too complex to run — you know, when you come up with a drama or a movie, you need a producer believing in the system. Or maybe — speculation: they don’t love their country that much. And they relegated this as a story of that time and didn’t equate it with its universality up to now. I remember that we had to take a José Rizal course for one year in university. Not Noli Me Tángere, but the life of José Rizal. In the discussion of the life of José Rizal, invariably you bring back some of the details of the novels — two novels. And then how it juxtaposed with José Rizal’s life. And that really made it more interesting because, in fact, José Rizal was writing something — at his time — a contemporary situation of his society. </text>
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