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              <text>Kaylee:  &#13;
Can you describe what your experience was like reading Noli Me Tángere in high school? You can talk about things like what school year you read it, or perhaps what strategies your teacher took in teaching the novel in class, for example. Or you can, you know, deviate from that as well.&#13;
&#13;
Kenneth:&#13;
[0:18] I first learned about Noli Me Tángere in high school, and that was in the third year of my high school — the second to the last year before we graduated. On that third year of high school, we had to study — rather, read Noli Me Tángere as part of a Filipino class. Language class. So, learning Filipino, but through reading a novel — not a textbook, but a novel — where we enjoyed every Saturday afternoon, a discussion with the teacher. So first, the teacher would ask us to read a chapter — everybody reads a chapter, every week. And then on that Saturday afternoon, the teacher and the students discuss the narrative. What happened to the protagonists, to the actors who were the players of this Filipino drama. But as you can see: it's like watching a telenovela that you anticipate, coming to class every week. And we had to speak in the local language Filipino, or the vernacular. It wasn't easy, but it was fun.&#13;
&#13;
Kaylee:  &#13;
[1:34] So the book — the novel version that you had to read was very thorough?&#13;
&#13;
Kenneth:  &#13;
[1:39] The novel that we had to read in the vernacular was, in fact, very thorough — a translation of the original text which was in Español. Of course, in that particular discussion, we remember in high school, it took about an hour per class. But we had the very exciting discussion because there was a bit of comedy, a bit of drama, tragedy, adventure, heroism. It's the way the prose was written it makes it — even though it was translated to Filipino — it makes it fun to read. I must admit that when reading that in Filipino, or the vernacular, it was not easy because we learned how to speak English, though we live in the Philippines. Reading heavy words in the local language for us at the high school level — and we were age sixteen years old at that time. I found it challenging. But the teachers made it funny. Made it entertaining and light. So, for me, I truly enjoyed it.</text>
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              <text>Kaylee:&#13;
I guess, how do you think the digital age has affected people's access to the book now. Not just Filipino students, but…&#13;
&#13;
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[0:12]&#13;
Yes. Internationally?&#13;
&#13;
Kaylee:&#13;
[0:16] Yeah, because — like you were saying, it’s on Project Gutenberg now.&#13;
&#13;
Catherine:&#13;
[0:18] Yes and, as I said, Penguin Classics, I think, has its own version — of course, it’s an English translation. Um, how it affected?&#13;
&#13;
Kaylee:&#13;
[0:30] I guess just, how it affects its widespread ability? And you know —&#13;
&#13;
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[0:37] Ah, social media, right? You were saying, like, also digital versions?&#13;
&#13;
Kaylee:&#13;
[0:42] Yeah and how, I guess — how many more people this story could impact?&#13;
&#13;
Catherine:  &#13;
[0:50] I think it’s — it could become like a world classic. I mean, you have English translations of Russian authors, German authors. So, it's good that the Filipino authors are also — or, you know, at least José Rizal is included among the classics, right? I mean, Penguin Classics — they take classics from all over the world and they put them in that collection. So it’s good that they included that. Because it really is a seminal work. It changed the history of the country. It deserves to have a place in the international…&#13;
&#13;
Kaylee:&#13;
[1:50] Literary canon?&#13;
&#13;
Catherine:&#13;
[1:51] Yes, actually, I think. I don't know how many people have read it outside of the Philippines, but now that it's available internationally, I hope more people will read it. Because it's really a good story. It's not a very veiled story. I mean, it's quite obvious. But it is very well written, and I think it served its purpose.</text>
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              <text>Catherine:&#13;
If they teach it right, it's pretty hard to take it for granted. Well, if they're going to teach it like that, in a rush in half a year — &#13;
&#13;
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[0:11] It’s easy to forget. &#13;
&#13;
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[0:14] If you don't — if you don’t feel the full weight of the story, it's easy to just say, ‘Oh, well, that's just a story.’ If you really inhabit that world, and you see how your countrymen were oppressed at that time — it's very hard to forget that story. So they should continue teaching it in full and in detail.</text>
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                <text>In this audio clip, the interviewee reflects on the total importance of teaching Noli Me Tángere correctly and comprehensively in schools. She expounds that, if it is taught in a way that makes students feel the weight of the story, it will become a story that students carry with them for the rest of their lives. </text>
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We touched on this idea already, that Noli Me Tángere and its sequel, El Filibusterismo, are an irreplaceable part of Philippine history and literature. And like you said, Jose Rizal is our national hero because the novels he wrote had such a profound impact on the Filipino people who were being abused under Spanish colonial rule. And his works almost directly helped incite the revolution, the rebellion. I guess — do you think your experience learning it in school did justice in reflecting its importance and significance, and the magnitude of the story? If so, in what ways do you think?&#13;
&#13;
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[0:56] Because we learned the whole thing, and we did it in such a thorough manner, you could really imagine what it was like, in those days. And you would find yourself getting incensed on behalf of the characters in the book. You literally could put yourself in the story and imagine all these things happening. So yeah, I think it really — the way I learned it really does justice to the work. And I actually think it stands up quite well. You could say that there are circumstances, even now, where a book like this might also still cause people to think of going against the establishment. If you can imagine the history then — but even now, in this current situation in history, there have been times when this can still cause people to think about going against oppression, going against an unjust government. So yeah, I think the legacy of José Rizal still stands.</text>
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Since you learned it as a textbook, did you find that the adaptation of the novel into a textbook form was complete and thorough in telling the story, at the time? And explain why you thought so. And additionally, how do you think the textbook format contributed to your knowledge and understanding of the book at the time you were studying it in the high school?&#13;
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[0:24] It's amazing I still have the textbook that I used &lt;laughs&gt;. It did help me to understand — it does help to know the details first, I guess. And so, in a textbook version, because they have these guide questions, you're already sort of led to start thinking in those terms — you know, in the lessons that the school will want you to know. So it helped me learn the purpose for the story. It didn't help me enjoy it as much — I mean, because it's a textbook. It's very thorough. Basically, they chopped up the book into chapters — I mean they’re in chapters anyway — but they chopped it up and put in study guides in between. And then aside from that, the teacher would say, ‘Okay, read five chapters for next week’ or something. And so you'd read five chapters, so it's all chopped up also that way. So, because we had the luxury of spending an entire school year studying this. We were able to go at a pace that we were able to discuss it in more detail I guess. So yeah, I think it was very good, as a learner, as a high school student, to learn it from a textbook like this.</text>
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I know you’re fluent in Tagalog and in English. For me, I think part of the reason it maybe wasn't so compelling in Tagalog was because I'm not fluent in it. So, you know, it was even harder for me to maybe slog through. And that's why, aside from being older and understanding literature better now, I also understand it better because it's in English. So I'm just wondering if you had — if you had any thoughts or comments about that translation, even though you understand a lot more Filipino, of the Filipino language, than I do. &#13;
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[0:40] I would tend to think even though I do understand Filipino, I think that I think in English. English is sort of my first language. So when I read it in English, I also did understand nuances — but maybe it’s the translation that I read. I understood the nuances a lot more than in the Filipino version. That's not to say that if I read it now, in Filipino, that I wouldn't get the same nuances. It's just when I was in high school, I didn't get the nuances because I was also younger. I think I actually went back to reread it maybe five years down the line, after I first read it in school. So, I had gone through college, as an English major learning how to critically analyze literature, and then gone back to read it in English. So I had already that way of thinking —&#13;
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[1:54] That was specific to English?&#13;
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[1:55] Yes, and a certain maturity also, because I was a bit older by then. And of course, it's your second time around, so you do have already an idea how things are going to go in the book. So when you're rereading it, having read it before — even if it's in a different language — you know the structure of the story already. You're just reading it to understand the details and to understand the…&#13;
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[2:33] Flow?&#13;
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[2:34] Yeah, to understand I guess maybe the reason the author decided to write it in that way. </text>
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Do you think that the school environment — such as learning it with classmates, having to write essays about it, being quizzed on the novel — impacted how you personally learned the book?&#13;
&#13;
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[0:10] Yes, because, you know, one of the things that they had us do was do the role play; that's one way to reinforce the story. Of course having quizzes, long tests and, you know, having it be part of the exams, is no fun. You always had to remember, ‘Okay, which character was this?’ It’s more that you have to remember it because you need it for the tests. It was good to have classmates to suffer through it with you. But I think partly is, I'm just interested in literature, anyway. So it was not a difficulty for me to get into it. And the story really is compelling. But I do think probably, I would learn it better if it wasn't required. But it's possible that if it wasn't required, I wouldn't even have read it to begin with. So yeah, it's probably good to make you read it early on, and then later on you can read it as literature. And also in high school, you're not really, you know, as analytical and they don't make you discuss it in the way that you discuss literature in college, for instance. So it's really more about the details: Which happened first? Who’s doing this? Why is this character doing that? You don't really think of it as a whole so much; you think of it in chapters. Because, I mean, that's the way we learn it, right? You're assigned certain chapters, so those are the chapters you discuss. You don't really get a chance to discuss the whole book, as a whole. &#13;
&#13;
[2:20] It's only later on when you're looking back and you’re looking at the whole story — not having to do with the dates, or the place, or the person — but you kind of see the entire backdrop against which it's happening that you understand why it had to happen like that. It's sort of like that for this book also. When you stop worrying about the little details, then you can get to see the bigger picture. And you understand better what the novel is about.</text>
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Segueing from that, do you think making Noli required reading in high schools affects how — and even the part about learning this history early on — do you think it affects how students perceive this novel when we finally get around to studying it?&#13;
&#13;
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[0:20] Well, as any student, if you're faced with a textbook, it's required reading. You're not going to have any fun doing it, right? But I remember afterwards, I did — I was curious enough to reread it in a different language, in English now. Because at that time, the first time I read it, it was in Filipino. And then I decided to read it in a translated version of English. Of course, the Filipino itself is a translation already, it was originally in Spanish. But — I don’t know. As a student, if you're faced with a textbook, you just think, ‘Okay, this is required reading. You just slog through it, it's homework.’ But I do recall when I read it in English, that it was for me a revelation. Even though I did know the story, it was — it had a different impact on me, reading it for entertainment and for my own curiosity. Reading it as a textbook — you learned it, you understood the story, but there's another reason that you're reading it. It's not just for fun. It's not just for, ‘Okay, I just want to know what this book is about.’ It's one of those things that after you finish reading it in school, you just leave it behind for the teacher and move on to the next textbook that you have to read.</text>
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Okay, so it's good that you mentioned Sisa, and these little details and scenes and characters from the book. Was there any other particular scene or character that struck you specifically when you were reading it? Or, if you don't have — if you don’t recall a specific part, do you remember what impression you had of the overall novel, at the time you were studying it?&#13;
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[0:23] Well, you know, we'd studied about José Rizal, we knew that he's our national hero because he wrote these books that incited the revolution that changed the history of the Philippines. So, when we read Noli, you kind of understand why people would be — would start thinking that maybe it's a good idea to revolt against the Spaniards because of all the corruption and all the suffering that they inflicted on the people at that time. I guess the main thing was, after I read it, I understood why. I understood why people were moved to action. And why, after these books were written, we had bands of rebels who really built a revolution against the Spaniards. So, maybe it's because we learned about José Rizal all throughout grade school, before you even get to read it in high school. So — I mean, I was never curious enough about the book to read it before it became required reading. But it's after when you're reading it, there's all that background in the back of your head that this incited a revolution. You know, at the end of it, you’re like ‘Ah, now I understand why — I understand why he’s revered as the national hero.’ You understand why he was executed by the Spaniards. You understand his life, basically. That's what I think happened after I finished reading the book.</text>
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Can you describe what your experience was like reading Noli Me Tángere in high school? You can talk about things like what school year you read it, or perhaps strategies that your teacher took in teaching the novel in class, for example.&#13;
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[0:17] We used a textbook that has study guides to help you make sure that you understood the chapters. The teacher would just assign certain chapters for us to read in between classes, and then we would discuss it in class. I think the tests were, you know, the usual tests. You have true or false, fill in the blanks, essay questions, that sort of thing. It’s kind of a mix of everything. We studied it in third year high school, so that would be — eleventh grade? No. Ninth grade? Ninth grade, I guess.&#13;
&#13;
Kaylee:&#13;
[1:09] No, eleventh grade. &#13;
&#13;
Catherine:&#13;
[1:10] Eleventh grade, okay. &#13;
&#13;
Kaylee: &#13;
[1:14] I know you've mentioned to me before that you had to do like role plays in class.&#13;
&#13;
Catherine:  &#13;
[1:25] Yes, certain chapters the teacher assigned for role play, and that's why I remember the character of Sisa because I had a classmate who did a really good job showing her descent into madness, when she was looking — frantically looking for her son and couldn't find him. That sort of made — that was a memory I still remember now, and it sort of reinforced the character in my mind. So, yeah, I guess that's the most memorable scene that I remember from the book. Although there are other, you know, little details also like the chicken neck — the chicken neck in the first chapter, and the priest who wasn't happy to get a chicken neck in his soup.&#13;
&#13;
Kaylee: &#13;
[2:22] The priest who turned out to be the — one of the main villains in the book. &lt;laughter&gt;&#13;
&#13;
Catherine: &#13;
[2:25] &lt;laughter&gt; Yes, that's right. He turns out to be the main villain, so he deserved the chicken neck. </text>
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Manila, Philippines</text>
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