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              <text>Kaylee: &#13;
Noli Me Tángere and El Filibusterismo are considered an irreplaceable part of Philippine history and literature. Like we've discussed earlier, José Rizal is our national hero because these novels that he wrote had such a profound impact on the Philippine Revolution. Did your experience learning it in school do justice in reflecting its importance and the magnitude of the story? And if so, in what ways do you think?&#13;
&#13;
Kenneth: &#13;
You must understand that when we studied Noli Me Tángere and El Filibusterismo, it was in the context of studying Filipino as a language — using that as a story — but not necessarily all the nuances and the context of the time. It was only years later, after graduating from a safe environment in high school, that we begin to realize that the society is really problematic. There is what is known as social cancer, corruption. There are elements in society and behavior of people in society that resonated from what we studied in Noli Me Tángere and El Filibusterismo. But this came years later, when we were already in university and already doing our exposure in real life and work, that we begin to realize the beauty of the different messages inscribed in these two books. It then made me realize why the book was, in fact, a seminal book in creating people to go against social injustice. But not during the time that we were studying that in high school, where as I said earlier, we were in a safe environment, and also studying it as a language class, but not necessarily as a social science class.&#13;
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              <text>Kaylee: &#13;
Can you describe what your experience was like reading Noli Me Tángere in high school? You can talk about things like what school year you read it, or perhaps strategies that your teacher took in teaching the novel in class, for example.&#13;
&#13;
Catherine: &#13;
[0:17] We used a textbook that has study guides to help you make sure that you understood the chapters. The teacher would just assign certain chapters for us to read in between classes, and then we would discuss it in class. I think the tests were, you know, the usual tests. You have true or false, fill in the blanks, essay questions, that sort of thing. It’s kind of a mix of everything. We studied it in third year high school, so that would be — eleventh grade? No. Ninth grade? Ninth grade, I guess.&#13;
&#13;
Kaylee:&#13;
[1:09] No, eleventh grade. &#13;
&#13;
Catherine:&#13;
[1:10] Eleventh grade, okay. &#13;
&#13;
Kaylee: &#13;
[1:14] I know you've mentioned to me before that you had to do like role plays in class.&#13;
&#13;
Catherine:  &#13;
[1:25] Yes, certain chapters the teacher assigned for role play, and that's why I remember the character of Sisa because I had a classmate who did a really good job showing her descent into madness, when she was looking — frantically looking for her son and couldn't find him. That sort of made — that was a memory I still remember now, and it sort of reinforced the character in my mind. So, yeah, I guess that's the most memorable scene that I remember from the book. Although there are other, you know, little details also like the chicken neck — the chicken neck in the first chapter, and the priest who wasn't happy to get a chicken neck in his soup.&#13;
&#13;
Kaylee: &#13;
[2:22] The priest who turned out to be the — one of the main villains in the book. &lt;laughter&gt;&#13;
&#13;
Catherine: &#13;
[2:25] &lt;laughter&gt; Yes, that's right. He turns out to be the main villain, so he deserved the chicken neck. </text>
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Okay, so it's good that you mentioned Sisa, and these little details and scenes and characters from the book. Was there any other particular scene or character that struck you specifically when you were reading it? Or, if you don't have — if you don’t recall a specific part, do you remember what impression you had of the overall novel, at the time you were studying it?&#13;
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[0:23] Well, you know, we'd studied about José Rizal, we knew that he's our national hero because he wrote these books that incited the revolution that changed the history of the Philippines. So, when we read Noli, you kind of understand why people would be — would start thinking that maybe it's a good idea to revolt against the Spaniards because of all the corruption and all the suffering that they inflicted on the people at that time. I guess the main thing was, after I read it, I understood why. I understood why people were moved to action. And why, after these books were written, we had bands of rebels who really built a revolution against the Spaniards. So, maybe it's because we learned about José Rizal all throughout grade school, before you even get to read it in high school. So — I mean, I was never curious enough about the book to read it before it became required reading. But it's after when you're reading it, there's all that background in the back of your head that this incited a revolution. You know, at the end of it, you’re like ‘Ah, now I understand why — I understand why he’s revered as the national hero.’ You understand why he was executed by the Spaniards. You understand his life, basically. That's what I think happened after I finished reading the book.</text>
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Segueing from that, do you think making Noli required reading in high schools affects how — and even the part about learning this history early on — do you think it affects how students perceive this novel when we finally get around to studying it?&#13;
&#13;
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[0:20] Well, as any student, if you're faced with a textbook, it's required reading. You're not going to have any fun doing it, right? But I remember afterwards, I did — I was curious enough to reread it in a different language, in English now. Because at that time, the first time I read it, it was in Filipino. And then I decided to read it in a translated version of English. Of course, the Filipino itself is a translation already, it was originally in Spanish. But — I don’t know. As a student, if you're faced with a textbook, you just think, ‘Okay, this is required reading. You just slog through it, it's homework.’ But I do recall when I read it in English, that it was for me a revelation. Even though I did know the story, it was — it had a different impact on me, reading it for entertainment and for my own curiosity. Reading it as a textbook — you learned it, you understood the story, but there's another reason that you're reading it. It's not just for fun. It's not just for, ‘Okay, I just want to know what this book is about.’ It's one of those things that after you finish reading it in school, you just leave it behind for the teacher and move on to the next textbook that you have to read.</text>
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Do you think that the school environment — such as learning it with classmates, having to write essays about it, being quizzed on the novel — impacted how you personally learned the book?&#13;
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[0:10] Yes, because, you know, one of the things that they had us do was do the role play; that's one way to reinforce the story. Of course having quizzes, long tests and, you know, having it be part of the exams, is no fun. You always had to remember, ‘Okay, which character was this?’ It’s more that you have to remember it because you need it for the tests. It was good to have classmates to suffer through it with you. But I think partly is, I'm just interested in literature, anyway. So it was not a difficulty for me to get into it. And the story really is compelling. But I do think probably, I would learn it better if it wasn't required. But it's possible that if it wasn't required, I wouldn't even have read it to begin with. So yeah, it's probably good to make you read it early on, and then later on you can read it as literature. And also in high school, you're not really, you know, as analytical and they don't make you discuss it in the way that you discuss literature in college, for instance. So it's really more about the details: Which happened first? Who’s doing this? Why is this character doing that? You don't really think of it as a whole so much; you think of it in chapters. Because, I mean, that's the way we learn it, right? You're assigned certain chapters, so those are the chapters you discuss. You don't really get a chance to discuss the whole book, as a whole. &#13;
&#13;
[2:20] It's only later on when you're looking back and you’re looking at the whole story — not having to do with the dates, or the place, or the person — but you kind of see the entire backdrop against which it's happening that you understand why it had to happen like that. It's sort of like that for this book also. When you stop worrying about the little details, then you can get to see the bigger picture. And you understand better what the novel is about.</text>
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I know you’re fluent in Tagalog and in English. For me, I think part of the reason it maybe wasn't so compelling in Tagalog was because I'm not fluent in it. So, you know, it was even harder for me to maybe slog through. And that's why, aside from being older and understanding literature better now, I also understand it better because it's in English. So I'm just wondering if you had — if you had any thoughts or comments about that translation, even though you understand a lot more Filipino, of the Filipino language, than I do. &#13;
&#13;
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[0:40] I would tend to think even though I do understand Filipino, I think that I think in English. English is sort of my first language. So when I read it in English, I also did understand nuances — but maybe it’s the translation that I read. I understood the nuances a lot more than in the Filipino version. That's not to say that if I read it now, in Filipino, that I wouldn't get the same nuances. It's just when I was in high school, I didn't get the nuances because I was also younger. I think I actually went back to reread it maybe five years down the line, after I first read it in school. So, I had gone through college, as an English major learning how to critically analyze literature, and then gone back to read it in English. So I had already that way of thinking —&#13;
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[1:54] That was specific to English?&#13;
&#13;
Catherine:&#13;
[1:55] Yes, and a certain maturity also, because I was a bit older by then. And of course, it's your second time around, so you do have already an idea how things are going to go in the book. So when you're rereading it, having read it before — even if it's in a different language — you know the structure of the story already. You're just reading it to understand the details and to understand the…&#13;
&#13;
Kaylee:&#13;
[2:33] Flow?&#13;
&#13;
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[2:34] Yeah, to understand I guess maybe the reason the author decided to write it in that way. </text>
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Since you learned it as a textbook, did you find that the adaptation of the novel into a textbook form was complete and thorough in telling the story, at the time? And explain why you thought so. And additionally, how do you think the textbook format contributed to your knowledge and understanding of the book at the time you were studying it in the high school?&#13;
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Catherine:  &#13;
[0:24] It's amazing I still have the textbook that I used &lt;laughs&gt;. It did help me to understand — it does help to know the details first, I guess. And so, in a textbook version, because they have these guide questions, you're already sort of led to start thinking in those terms — you know, in the lessons that the school will want you to know. So it helped me learn the purpose for the story. It didn't help me enjoy it as much — I mean, because it's a textbook. It's very thorough. Basically, they chopped up the book into chapters — I mean they’re in chapters anyway — but they chopped it up and put in study guides in between. And then aside from that, the teacher would say, ‘Okay, read five chapters for next week’ or something. And so you'd read five chapters, so it's all chopped up also that way. So, because we had the luxury of spending an entire school year studying this. We were able to go at a pace that we were able to discuss it in more detail I guess. So yeah, I think it was very good, as a learner, as a high school student, to learn it from a textbook like this.</text>
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